Sagas islandaises

La réponse est sur un fuseau voisin.
Mais je pense qu'on devrait se calmer, à présent.
Tout ceci n'en vaut pas la peine et plus ça dérape, plus Hansgeorg multipliera ses interventions... l'objectif est clair, à présent.

Donc calme et silence.
Tar Aldarion fera prochainement le ménage nécessaire.

I.

Posté par Eruantalon-Alcarnarmo

Aucune nuance, aucun discernement, aucune référence...

Aucune nuance?
"majoritairement"

Tous ou aucuns aurait été sans nuance.

Aucun discernement?
"pas toujours avec le réalisme d'Uppsale"

Que des royautés (East Anglia, les Skøldungar, les Skilfingar et d'autres) reclamaient de déscendre d'Odin est hors doute.

Aucune référence?

Ah, vous vouliez une référence plutôt que de juste me contredire? Oui, j'ai si ça vous intéresse.

Pour East Anglia, les Wuffingas ont un article sur la wikipédie anglaise:

"The kingdom of East Anglia was settled by peoples from northern Europe during the 5th and 6th centuries. Historical sources relating to the genealogy of the East Anglian kings include the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and Bede's Ecclesiastical History, both compiled many years after the kingdom was formed, as well as lists produced by medieval historians, such as the 12th century Textus Roffensis, who may have had access to other sources that are now lost. Several of the Wuffingas kings are included in a pedigree of Ælfwald, contained in the Anglian collection that dates from the 9th century. In the pedigree, Ælfwald is claimed to descend from the god Wōden."

Les derniers trois sont Tyttman (Tytman Casericg), Caesar (Caser Wodning), Wōden (Woden Frealafing).

Et comme dit, ceci n'a pas le réalisme d'Uppsale. César est appelé "fils de Woden" pour la même raison que Sarpédon est appelé fils de Zeus et d'Europe : comme explication des prodiges (dans le cas de ces gens, le prodigieux était plutôt Minos comme roi de Crète, quasi Césarien dans son temps et son lieu).

Or, quant à la dynastie entre Uppsale et Norvège, voir Islande, ma référence est surtout Snorri. D'ailleurs, je crois que je le disais l'autre fois.

10. OF ODIN'S DEATH. Odin died in his bed in Swithiod; and when he was near his death he made himself be marked with the point of a spear, and said he was going to Godheim, and would give a welcome there to all his friends, and all brave warriors should be dedicated to him; and the Swedes believed that he was gone to the ancient Asgaard, and would live there eternally. Then began the belief in Odin, and the calling upon him. The Swedes believed that he often showed to them before any great battle. To some he gave victory; others he invited to himself; and they reckoned both of these to be fortunate. Odin was burnt, and at his pile there was great splendour. It was their faith that the higher the smoke arose in the air, the higher he would be raised whose pile it was; and the richer he would be, the more property that was consumed with him. 11. OF NJORD. Njord of Noatun was then the sole sovereign of the Swedes; and he continued the sacrifices, and was called the drot or sovereign by the Swedes, and he received scatt and gifts from them. In his days were peace and plenty, and such good years, in all respects, that the Swedes believed Njord ruled over the growth of seasons and the prosperity of the people. In his time all the diar or gods died, and blood-sacrifices were made for them. Njord died on a bed of sickness, and before he died made himself be marked for Odin with the spear-point. The Swedes burned him, and all wept over his grave-mound. 11. FREY'S DEATH. Frey took the kingdom after Njord, and was called drot by the Swedes, and they paid taxes to him. He was, like his father, fortunate in friends and in good seasons. Frey built a great temple at Upsal, made it his chief seat, and gave it all his taxes, his land, and goods. Then began the Upsal domains, which have remained ever since. Then began in his days the Frode- peace; and then there were good seasons, in all the land, which the Swedes ascribed to Frey, so that he was more worshipped than the other gods, as the people became much richer in his days by reason of the peace and good seasons. His wife was called Gerd, daughter of Gymis, and their son was called Fjolne. Frey was called by another name, Yngve; and this name Yngve was considered long after in his race as a name of honour, so that his descendants have since been called Ynglinger. Frey fell into a sickness; and as his illness took the upper hand, his men took the plan of letting few approach him. In the meantime they raised a great mound, in which they placed a door with three holes in it. Now when Frey died they bore him secretly into the mound, but told the Swedes he was alive; and they kept watch over him for three years. They brought all the taxes into the mound, and through the one hole they put in the gold, through the other the silver, and through the third the copper money that was paid. Peace and good seasons continued.Ynglinga (Saga) 71. OLAF AND ODIN'S APPARITION. It is related that once on a time King Olaf was at a feast at this Ogvaldsnes, and one eventide there came to him an old man very gifted in words, and with a broad-brimmed hat upon his head. He was one-eyed, and had something to tell of every land. He entered into conversation with the king; and as the king found much pleasure in the guest's speech, he asked him concerning many things, to which the guest gave good answers: and the king sat up late in the evening. Among other things, the king asked him if he knew who the Ogvald had been who had given his name both to the ness and to the house. The guest replied, that this Ogvald was a king, and a very valiant man, and that he made great sacrifices to a cow which he had with him wherever he went, and considered it good for his health to drink her milk. This same King Ogvald had a battle with a king called Varin, in which battle Ogvald fell. He was buried under a mound close to the house; "and there stands his stone over him, and close to it his cow also is laid." Such and many other things, and ancient events, the king inquired after. Now, when the king had sat late into the night, the bishop reminded him that it was time to go to bed, and the king did so. But after the king was undressed, and had laid himself in bed, the guest sat upon the foot-stool before the bed, and still spoke long with the king; for after one tale was ended, he still wanted a new one. Then the bishop observed to the king, it was time to go to sleep, and the king did so; and the guest went out. Soon after the king awoke, asked for the guest, and ordered him to be called, but the guest was not to be found. The morning after, the king ordered his cook and cellar- master to be called, and asked if any strange person had been with them. They said, that as they were making ready the meat a man came to them, and observed that they were cooking very poor meat for the king's table; whereupon he gave them two thick and fat pieces of beef, which they boiled with the rest of the meat. Then the king ordered that all the meat should be thrown away, and said this man can be no other than the Odin whom the heathens have so long worshipped; and added, "but Odin shall not deceive us."


King Olaf Trygvason's Saga: Part II

Posté par Eruantalon-Alcarnarmo

une vision de l'histoire biaisée par des préjugés et des fantasmes strictement personnels, le tout dans un langage qui écorche les yeux du lecteur...

"strictement personnels"?
Bon, non.

La personne de Snorri et la personne de Chesterton ne sont pas ma propre personne. Et celle de Hilaire Belloc non plus.

Strictement personnel serait un mot pour décrire qqc qui ne concerne que moi seul.

Posté par Eruantalon-Alcarnarmo

Et toujours la poussée irrésistible vers un hors-sujet prémédité.

Quand tout ceci s'arrêtera-t-il ?

Le "hors sujet" si-dit commence avec commentaire n° 2 de Tar Aldarion.

Votre attitude préjugé contre moi est en ce cas, comme pas mal d'autres (sujets vérouillés, hélas) très à côté de la vérité.

Et vous vouliez, il y a qqs semaines ME donner des leçons en modestie? Fi donc!

Merci Hansgeorg pour ces extraits que nous sommes un certain nombre à déjà connaître.

Je crois qu'il y a un malentendu : Eruantalon parlait de références.
Les légendes rapportées dans la Heimskringla tiennent plus de la chronique romancée que d'un document historique solide.
Plus on remonte dans le temps, plus c'est fantaisiste. Exactement comme César qui se proclame descendant d'Ascagne et - pardon de le dire - comme l'Arbre de Jessé, dont l'objectif est absolument identique : donner une filiation illustre aux uns et aux autres dans un but éminemment politique (au sens large du thème).
La Heimskringla est tout comme le prologue de l'Edda (prologue dont personne ne peut certifier qu'il s'agit bien de la plume de Snorri), ils n'ont pas d'autre intérêt que celui d'éclairer un aspect du mythe, sous un jour évhémériste (et donc forcément et inévitablement militant, ne l'oublions pas), et non pas de donner l'explication du mythe.

De fait, cet extrait de la Heimskringla, qui se trouve en contradiction avec de nombreux aspects du reste de l’œuvre de Snorri, est insuffisant pour pleinement justifier votre hypothèse (je reprends votre mot du 25 août dernier), même si celle-ci s'en nourrit avec gourmandise.

Il nous faudrait quelque chose de plus consistant, notamment sur le rôle de César, par exemple. De vraies références inédites, quoi. Un texte incontestable que nous ne connaîtrions pas, quelques runes inédites et révélatrices, ou une monnaie antique attestant de l'existence d'un prince "Odin" humain à Upasalla à l'aube de notre ère...

Si vous avez ça sous la main, n'hésitez pas... Je serai le premier à vous applaudir aussi fort que l'auraient fait Týr, après avoir caressé la langue de Fenrir.

En attendant, votre hypothèse ne reste qu'une hypothèse.

I.

Posté par ISENGAR

Je crois qu'il y a un malentendu : Eruantalon parlait de références.

Effectivement.

Posté par ISENGAR

Les légendes rapportées dans la Heimskringla tiennent plus de la chronique romancée que d'un document historique solide.

Je connais cette idéologie sur ce genre de sources, elle n'est pas la mienne.

Posté par ISENGAR

Plus on remonte dans le temps, plus c'est fantaisiste. Exactement comme César qui se proclame descendant d'Ascagne et - pardon de le dire - comme l'Arbre de Jessé, dont l'objectif est absolument identique : donner une filiation illustre aux uns et aux autres dans un but éminemment politique (au sens large du thème).

Je crois dans la filiation d'Ascagne aussi, évidemment.

Pour les Wuffingas en East Anglia, je suis prône à partager votre avis.

À moins que Tyttman serait Césarion ou un de ces frères inconnus, ou que Woden ait appelé un de ses fils César en référence au contemporain plus célèbre (et qui dans l'hypothèse druide aurait été son vieil ennemi).

Posté par ISENGAR

La Heimskringla est tout comme le prologue de l'Edda (prologue dont personne ne peut certifier qu'il s'agit bien de la plume de Snorri), ils n'ont pas d'autre intérêt que celui d'éclairer un aspect du mythe, sous un jour évhémériste (et donc forcément et inévitablement militant, ne l'oublions pas), et non pas de donner l'explication du mythe.

Faux. La Heimskringla est l'histoire des Ynglings avant les grandes sagas dans la série, ou jusqu'en celles-ci. C'est comme Tite Live - sauf que la république romaine n'a pas toujours eu les descendants d'Ascagne sur le premier plan. Et sauf que la Heimskringla n'a pas les lacunes faites par des pertes de livres. Et la dynastie des Ynglings - à Uppsale, en Wermlandie, et finalement en Norvège - est le sujet unificateur. Uppsale n'est pas systématiquement abordé après Ingjald Illråde, et Norvège ne l'est pas avant son fils Olof Trételgja, qui s'installait juste à côté, en Wermlandie, et dont le fils migrait en Norvège.

Posté par ISENGAR

De fait, cet extrait de la Heimskringla, qui se trouve en contradiction avec de nombreux aspects du reste de l’œuvre de Snorri, est insuffisant pour pleinement justifier votre hypothèse (je reprends votre mot du 25 août dernier), même si celle-ci s'en nourrit avec gourmandise.

1) L'historicité humaine d'Odin n'est pas pour moi une hypothèse. Elle est un fait clairement établi.
2) Ce que j'appelle hypothèses sont par contre mes hypothèses sur les origines pre-Yngling d'Odin: hypothèse Druide, hypothèse Prêtre Égyptien, hypothèse quelque forme de mage Hébreu; ainsi que les hypothèses de Thor Heyrdahl et de Snorri: Crimée pour le norvégien contemporain, Troie pour l'islandais médiéval.
3) "qui se trouve en contradiction avec de nombreux aspects du reste de l’œuvre de Snorri" - si vous ne précisez pas lesquels aspects, vous l'avez tiré de l'air. Vous bluffez simplement.

Posté par ISENGAR

Il nous faudrait quelque chose de plus consistant, notamment sur le rôle de César, par exemple.

Son rôle dans la généalogie des Wuffingas? Je vous accorde la probabilité de pure décoration.

Son rôle dans mon hypothèse druide, comme celui ayant chassé Odin de Gaule? Bon, il a chassé les Druides, ou il les a désétablis. Motif possible pour un eu quelques hardis de s'oser autre part et de perpétuer leur secte là - comme Brigham Young après la mort de Joseph Smith.

Son rôle comme contemporain probable de Woden?

Odin et Njord sont contemporains, et le fils de Njord, Frey ou Yngwe, est beaufils d'Odin. Ensuite le fils, non divinisé, de Frey est Fjolne. Celui-ci visita Frode, là Snorre et Saxo sont d'accord.

Et selon Snorre, le Frode qu'il visita est le Frode de Paix, Fredfrode.

Or, c'est ici que les choses deviennent intéressants et un peu compliquées.

Pour Saxo, Fjolne a visité Frode Haddingsson, Frode I, et Fredfrode est, plusieurs siècles plus tard, Frode II. Et celui-ci est contemporain de César Auguste.

Frode Haddingson et Fjolne pourraient donc être contemporains d'Alexandre de Macédoine et donc Odin de Cyrus.

Par contre, pour Snorre, le Frode visité par Fjolne est Fredfrode, est le contemporain de César Auguste. Par ce fait le grandpère pourrait être contemporain plus âgé de Jules César.

Posté par ISENGAR

De vraies références inédites, quoi. Un texte incontestable que nous ne connaîtrions pas,

Visiblement Snorre et Saxo sont des textes qui, quoique pas inédits, sont inconnus par vous.

Posté par ISENGAR

quelques runes inédites et révélatrices, ou une monnaie antique attestant de l'existence d'un prince "Odin" humain à Upasalla à l'aube de notre ère...

Runes inédites et révélatrices? Devinez à quelle catégorie je place les références donnés par Tolkien à Nodens (bien entendu principalement dans mon hypothèse druide).

Cette forme est proche de Vodens, et cette forme ci est possible comme forme très vieille pour Odin et Woden. Pour Wotan, c'est plus compliqué - mais Wotan requiert une proto-forme proto-germanique qui, quant à elle, n'est pas compatible avec la proto-forme pré-germanique.

Wothinaz peut remonter à Watenos. Mais Wothinaz ne peut pas donner Wotan.

Wothanaz peut donner Wotan, mais ne peut pas remonter à Watenos.

Wothinaz et Wothens (possible orthographe à l'époque : VODENS, une ligne de discrépance avec NODENS) donnent les mêmes formes, dont Othinn et Woden, mais pas Wotan, qui reste problématique.

Autre référence à Nodens dans la mythologie des Aesir : Njord s'appelle systématiquement "af Noatun" / de Noatun. Et que Noatun est le même nom que Nodens, Nuadda, Nudd, etc (qui remontent tous à Nodens) est communément accepté par les philologues - de métier.

Upsala ne peut pas s'orthographier Upasalla, je ne sais pas où vous avez cette forme. Elle n'est point correcte. D'ailleurs, selon Snorre, placer Odin à Upsala ou Uppsala était de ma part un leger anachronisme: le siège a été fondé par Frey.

Et les Uppsala Högar - j'ai regardé le site internet pour les archéologues suédois - ne sont pas tous excavées, notemment pas les trois plus grands au milieu. Il s'agit de collines artificielles qui étaient déjà là au temps de Snorre et de Saxo et d'Adam de Brème (dont les renseignements sur le paganisme sont essentiellement concentré sur le contemporain, d'une perspective missionnaire plutôt que d'antiquaire).

Et puisque les collines à Upsale ne sont pas excavées à l'époque la plus ancienne, il y a des preuves possibles que nous manquons. Pour moi, il ne me manquent pas trop. La tradition unanime nordique dit qu'Odin a effectivement siégé en Suithiod (avant sinon dans Uppsale) et que Hlethre n'a pas été son siège.

Pourtant, les Skøldungar danois reclamaient autant que les Ynglingar, une origine divine (reconnue par Snorre, au moins à titre de réclamation), et dans leur cas plus strictement Odinienne (elle ne passe pas par un beaufils comme Frey). À mon avis la lignée Sköld - Halfdan - Hadding - Frode (de la Paix ou autre avant) ne permettent pas qu'un homme contemporain du grandpère de Fjolne ait été aussi le père de Skøld. Je considère donc que le poëte de Beowulf avait plus raison quant à Scyld Scefing. Donc, dans le cas d'un simple euhémérisme, d'une simple réclamation pour raisons politiques, pourquoi a-t-on seulement eu ça pour Uppsale/Norvège et en rien du tout pour Hlethre au Danemark?

Visiblement vous tombez à court d'arguments pour vos interprétations grand-guignolesques et votre capacité à répéter inlassablement les mêmes idioties me laisse pantois. Une preuve supplémentaire que vous n'avez absolument rien à apporter ici.

Posté par Druss

Visiblement vous tombez à court d'arguments ...

Vos ad hominem montrent que vous tombez à court de réfutations, plutôt.

Mais j'étais en train de chercher encore une confirmation supplémentaire - trouvé.

Le Futhark Ancien a eu ses premiers inscriptions connue de nous vers 150 AD.

Il est une de formes de runes. Et celles-ci étaient attribués à ... Odin.

Par contre, le Futhark Ancien vient s'il vient en 150 A. D. quelques siècles après les alphabets Vieilles-Italiques.

"This classical alphabet remained in use until the 2nd century BC when it began to be influenced by the rise of the Latin alphabet. Soon after, the Etruscan language itself became extinct." (alphabet étrusque)

L'alphabet de Bolzano était utilisé dans des inscirptions rhétiques.

"Many inscriptions are known, but most of them are only short and fairly repetitive, probably mostly votive texts. Raetic became extinct by the 3rd century AD, with its speakers eventually adopting Vulgar Latin in the south and Germanic in the north, and possibly Celtic prior to that." (le rhétic)

"The language is attested by over 300 short inscriptions dating from the 6th to the 1st century BC." (le vénète)Or, les alphabètes rhétiques, vénètes et étrusques sont les "suspects principaux" derrière les runes. Et leur duré d'utilisation est à tous compatible avec le temps que j'assigne à Woden historique, mais sauf la rhétique incompatibles avec les premières inscriptions runiques connues.

Ceci parle aussi en faveur de la chronologie de Snorri contre celle de Saxo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_It...etic_alphabets

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetic_language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_language

Tar Aldarion avait une hypothèse sur les origines (purement) indo-européennes de la religion nordique. Elle colle mal avec des éléments très visiblement proche-orientaux, comme le mythe de création à la Marduk, comme le sacrifice humain. Et les rimthursar ne sont pas trop loin des nephelim bibliques, surtout dans la tradition judaïque.

Je considère que mon hypothèse reste la mieux argumenté, et que vos ad hominem n'y changent rien.

Eh bien, force est de constater qu' on tourne en rond. Oui, tout ceci reste du niveau grand guignol sous couvert de pseudo-maîtrise de sources mal comprises, mal interprétées ou sciemment détournées.

Je vous ai tendu une aimable perche. Vous l'avez attrapée avec votre arrogance habituelle (et je m'y connais) et vous confirmez vous même dans votre message de ce matin que vous êtes un idéologue.
Ceci nous suffit pour conclure définitivement que vous n'êtes pas ici pour le partage mais pour un objectif qui ne nous intéresse absolument pas.

Tolkienfrance, ainsi que l'ensemble des sites sérieux dédiés à Tolkien ne sont pas des refuges pour ésotéristes, occultistes ni pour les mytho-revisionnistes en mal de public.

Nous arrêterons donc ici les pertes de temps des uns et des autres.

J'invite l'ensemble de mes camarades de Tolkienfrance à ne plus répondre à vos messages.

I.

Posté par ISENGAR

Eh bien, force est de constater qu' on tourne en rond.

C'est à dire votre arrogance idéologique n'a pas été prise comme argument valable par moi?

Posté par ISENGAR

Oui, tout ceci reste du niveau grand guignol sous couvert de pseudo-maîtrise de sources mal comprises, mal interprétées ou sciemment détournées.

Vous n'osez même pas prétendre de les comprendre mieux que moi.

J'avais espéré qqc comme "mais Snorri est de la mythologie" pour vous pouvoir coller sur le fait que si effectivement son Edda est mythologie (introduite par une perspective chrétienne qui s'accorde avec Heimskringla) alors sa Heimskringla est de l'histoire. Comme Tite Live.

J'avais encore espéré que vous alliez dire une bêtise comme "c'est juste un auteur".

Car si je ne base pas ma chronologie sur Saxo, il est pleinement d'accord sur le fait que pas seulement Odin a existé comme un homme et un mage, mais encore il a été roi en Suithioth (Suède) et non pas au Danemark.

Vous avez sagement évité ces pièges, et en vérifiant vous avez compris ne rien gagner avec ce genre d'arguments, car les arguments sont de mon côté, pas du vôtre.

At this time there was one Odin, who was credited over all Europe with the honour, which was false, of godhead, but used more continually to sojourn at Upsala; and in this spot, either from the sloth of the inhabitants or from its own pleasantness, he vouchsafed to dwell with somewhat especial constancy. The kings of the North, desiring more zealously to worship his deity, embounded his likeness in a golden image; and this statue, which betokened their homage, they transmitted with much show of worship to Byzantium, fettering even the effigied arms with a serried mass of bracelets. Odin was overjoyed at such notoriety, and greeted warmly the devotion of the senders. But his queen Frigga, desiring to go forth more beautified, called smiths, and had the gold stripped from the statue. Odin hanged them, and mounted the statue upon a pedestal, which by the marvellous skill of his art he made to speak when a mortal touched it. But still Frigga preferred the splendour of her own apparel to the divine honours of her husband, and submitted herself to the embraces of one of her servants; and it was by this man's device she broke down the image, and turned to the service of her private wantonness that gold which had been devoted to public idolatry. Little thought she of practicing unchastity, that she might the easier satisfy her greed, this woman so unworthy to be the consort of a god; but what should I here add, save that such a godhead was worthy of such a wife? So great was the error that of old befooled the minds of men. Thus Odin, wounded by the double trespass of his wife, resented the outrage to his image as keenly as that to his bed; and, ruffled by these two stinging dishonours, took to an exile overflowing with noble shame, imagining so to wipe off the slur of his ignominy

When he had retired, one Mit-othin, who was famous for his juggling tricks, was likewise quickened, as though by inspiration from on high, to seize the opportunity of feigning to be a god; and, wrapping the minds of the barbarians in fresh darkness, he led them by the renown of his jugglings to pay holy observance to his name. He said that the wrath of the gods could never be appeased nor the outrage to their deity expiated by mixed and indiscriminate sacrifices, and therefore forbade that prayers for this end should be put up without distinction, appointing to each of those above his especial drink-offering. But when Odin was returning, he cast away all help of jugglings, went to Finland to hide himself, and was there attacked and slain by the inhabitants. Even in his death his abominations were made manifest, for those who came nigh his barrow were cut off by a kind of sudden death; and after his end, he spread such pestilence that he seemed almost to leave a filthier record in his death than in his life: it was as though he would extort from the guilty a punishment for his slaughter. The inhabitants, being in this trouble, took the body out of the mound, beheaded it, and impaled it through the breast with a sharp stake; and herein that people found relief


The death of Odin's wife revived the ancient splendour of his name, and seemed to wipe out the disgrace upon his deity; so, returning from exile, he forced all those, who had used his absence to assume the honours of divine rank, to resign them as usurped; and the gangs of sorcerers that had arisen he scattered like a darkness before the advancing glory of his godhead. And he forced them by his power not only to lay down their divinity, but further to quit the country, deeming that they, who tried to foist themselves so iniquitously into the skies, ought to be outcasts from the earth


Meanwhile Asmund, the son of Swipdag, fought with Hadding to avenge his father. And when he heard that Henry his son, his love for whom he set even before his own life, had fallen fighting valiantly, his soul longed for death, and loathed the light of day, and made a song in a strain like this:...

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1150/...#link2H_4_0022

Et un peu plus tard:

But Odin, though he was accounted the chief of the gods, began to inquire of the prophets and diviners concerning the way to acomplish vengeance for his son, as well as all others whom he had beard were skilled in the most recondite arts of soothsaying. For godhead that is incomplete is oft in want of the help of man. Rostioph (Hrossthiof), the Finn, foretold to him that another son must be born to him by Rinda (Wrinda), daughter of the King of the Ruthenians; this son was destined to exact punishment for the slaying of his brother. For the gods had appointed to the brother that was yet to be born the task of avenging his kinsman. Odin, when he heard this, muffled his face with a cap, that his garb might not betray him, and entered the service of the said king as a soldier; and being made by him captain of the soldiers, and given an army, won a splendid victory over the enemy. And for his stout achievement in this battle the king admitted him into the chief place in his friendship, distinguishing him as generously with gifts as with honours. A very little while afterwards Odin routed the enemy single-handed, and returned, at once the messenger and the doer of the deed. All marvelled that the strength of one man could deal such slaughter upon a countless host. Trusting in these services, he privily let the king into the secret of his love, and was refreshed by his most gracious favour; but when he sought a kiss from the maiden, he received a cuff. But he was not driven from his purpose either by anger at the slight or by the odiousness of the insult

Next year, loth to quit ignobly the quest he had taken up so eagerly, he put on the dress of a foreigner and went back to dwell with the king. It was hard for those who met him to recognise him; for his assumed filth obliterated his true features, and new grime hid his ancient aspect. He said that his name was Roster (Hrosstheow), and that he was skilled in smithcraft. And his handiwork did honour to his professions: for he portrayed in bronze many and many a shape most beautifully, so that he received a great mass of gold from the king, and was ordered to hammer out the ornaments of the matrons. So, after having wrought many adornments for women's wearing, he at last offered to the maiden a bracelet which he had polished more laboriously than the rest and several rings which were adorned with equal care. But no services could assuage the wrath of Rinda; when he was fain to kiss her she cuffed him; for gifts offered by one we hate are unacceptable, while those tendered by a friend are far more grateful: so much doth the value of the offering oft turn on the offerer. For this stubborn-hearted maiden never doubted that the crafty old man was feigning generosity in order to seize an opening to work his lust. His temper, moreover, was keen and indomitable; for she knew that his homage covered guile, and that under the devotion of his gifts there lay a desire for crime. Her father fell to upbraiding her heavily for refusing the match; but she loathed to wed an old man, and the plea of her tender years lent her some support in her scorning of his hand; for she said that a young girl ought not to marry prematurely

But Odin, who had found that nothing served the wishes of lovers more than tough persistency, though he was stung with the shame of his double rebuff, nevertheless, effacing the form he had worn before, went to the king for the third time, professing the completest skill in soldiership. He was led to take this pains not only by pleasure but by the wish to wipe out his disgrace. For of old those who were skilled in magic gained this power of instantly changing their aspect and exhibiting the most different shapes. Indeed, they were clever at imitating any age, not only in its natural bodily appearance, but also in its stature; and so the old man, in order to exhibit his calling agreeably, used to ride proudly up and down among the briskest of them. But not even such a tribute could move the rigour of the maiden; for it is hard for the mind to come back to a genuine liking for one against whom it has once borne heavy dislike. When he tried to kiss her at his departure, she repulsed him so that he tottered and smote his chin upon the ground. Straightway he touched her with a piece of bark whereon spells were written, and made her like unto one in frenzy: which was a gentle revenge to take for all the insults he had received


But still he did not falter in the fulfilment of his purpose; for trust in his divine majesty buoyed him up with confidence; so, assuming the garb of a maiden, this indefatigable journeyer repaired for the fourth time to the king, and, on being received by him, showed himself assiduous and even forward. Most people believed him to be a woman, as he was dressed almost in female attire. Also he declared that his name wa s Wecha, and his calling that of a physician: and this assertion he confirmed by the readiest services. At last he was taken into the household of the queen, and played the part of a waiting-woman to the princess, and even used to wash the soil off her feet at eventide; and as he was applying the water he was suffered to touch her calves and the upper part of the thighs. But fortune goes with mutable steps, and thus chance put into his hand what his address had never won. For it happened that the girl fell sick, and looked around for a cure; and she summoned to protect her health those very hands which aforetime she had rejected, and appealed for preservation to him whom she had ever held in loathing. He examined narrowly all the symptoms of the trouble, and declared that, in order to check the disease as soon as possible, it was needful to use a certain drugged draught; but that it was so bitterly compounded, that the girl could never endure so violent a cure unless she submitted to be bound; since the stuff of the malady must be ejected from the very innermost tissues. When her father heard this he did not hesitate to bind his daughter; and laying her on the bed, he bade her endure patiently all the applications of the doctor. For the king was tricked by the sight of the female dress, which the old man was using to disguise his persistent guile; and thus the seeming remedy became an opportunity of outrage. For the physician seized the chance of love, and, abandoning his business of healing, sped to the work, not of expelling the fever, but of working his lust; making use of the sickness of the princess, whom in sound health he had found adverse to him. It will not be wearisome if I subjoin another version of this affair. For there are certain who say that the king, when he saw the physician groaning with love, but despite all his expense of mind and body accomplishing nothing, did not wish to rob of his due reward one who had so well earned it, and allowed him to lie privily with his daughter. So doth the wickedness of the father sometimes assail the child, when vehement passion perverts natural mildness. But his fault was soon followed by a remorse that was full of shame, when his daughter bore a child


But the gods, whose chief seat was then at Byzantium, (Asgard), seeing that Odin had tarnished the fair name of godhead by divers injuries to its majesty, thought that he ought to be removed from their society. And they had him not only ousted from the headship, but outlawed and stripped of all worship and honour at home; thinking it better that the power of their infamous president should be overthrown than that public religion should be profaned; and fearing that they might themselves be involved in the sin of another, and though guiltless be punished for the crime of the guilty. For they saw that, now the derision of their great god was brought to light, those whom they had lured to proffer them divine honours were exchanging obeisance for scorn and worship for shame; that holy rites were being accounted sacrilege, and fixed and regular ceremonies deemed so much childish raving. Fear was in their souls, death before their eyes, and one would have supposed that the fault of one was visited upon the heads of all. So, not wishing Odin to drive public religion into exile, they exiled him and put one Oller (Wulder?) in his place, to bear the symbols not only Of royalty but also of godhead, as though it had been as easy a task to create a god as a king. And though they had appointed him priest for form's sake, they endowed him actually with full distinction, that he might be seen to be the lawful heir to the dignity, and no mere deputy doing another's work. Also, to omit no circumstance of greatness, they further gave his the name of Odin, trying by the prestige of that title to be rid of the obloquy of innovation. For nearly ten years Oller held the presidency of the divine senate; but at last the gods pitied the horrible exile of Odin, and thought that he had now been punished heavily enough; so he exchanged his foul and unsightly estate for his ancient splendour; for the lapse of time had now wiped out the brand of his earlier disgrace. Yet some were to be found who judged that he was not worthy to approach and resume his rank, because by his stage-tricks and his assumption of a woman's work he had brought the foulest scandal on the name of the gods. Some declare that he bought back the fortune of his lost divinity with money; flattering some of the gods and mollifying some with bribes; and that at the cost of a vast sum he contrived to get back to the distinction which he had long quitted. If you ask how much he paid for them, inquire of those who have found out what is the price of a godhead. I own that to me it is but little worth.
Thus Oller was driven out from Byzantium by Odin and retired into Sweden. Here, while he was trying, as if in a new world, to repair the records of his glory, the Danes slew him. The story goes that he was such a cunning wizard that he used a certain bone, which he had marked with awful spells, wherewith to cross the seas, instead of a vessel; and that by this bone he passed over the waters that barred his way as quickly as by rowing.

http://sacred-texts.com/neu/saxo/saxo03.htm

En d'autres mots, même si Saxo fait cause d'une autre dynastie en Suède que les Ynglings (Swipdag et d'autres), lui aussi associe Odin avec Uppsale, avec Suède et Finlande.

Posté par ISENGAR

Je vous ai tendu une aimable perche. Vous l'avez attrapée avec votre arrogance habituelle (et je m'y connais) et vous confirmez vous même dans votre message de ce matin que vous êtes un idéologue.

Vous faites cause de ma prétendue arrogance quend je ne suis pas d'accord avec vous.

Les idéologues, ce sont vous qui êtes contre l'historicité d'Odin, de Hercule, d'Arthur, de Beowulf, de Romulus.

Tous ces gens sont attestés en tant qu'ayant vécu comme hommes. Mais vous avez une idéologie contre les vieilles sources. Tant pis pour vous.

Posté par ISENGAR

Ceci nous suffit pour conclure définitivement que vous n'êtes pas ici pour le partage mais pour un objectif qui ne nous intéresse absolument pas.

ISENGAR, que ça VOUS n'interesse pas, c'est merveilleusement clair. Ce qu'est aussi merveilleusement clair est que ça vous intéresse de me le redire fois après fois. Au nom de vous-même, de Druss, d'Eruantalon Alcarnarmo. Peut-être aussi au nom de Lomelindë, je ne sais pas.

Posté par ISENGAR

Tolkienfrance, ainsi que l'ensemble des sites sérieux dédiés à Tolkien ne sont pas des refuges pour ésotéristes, occultistes ni pour les mytho-revisionnistes en mal de public.

Je n'ai rien invoqué d'ésotérique, ni d'occulte. Vous êtes simplement confus quant aux catégories.

Les révisionnistes sont plutôt vous qui prétendez que évhémérisme idéologique ait produit chaque allégation d'un dieu - donc d'un faux dieu - ayant vécu sur terre. Certains poussent cette idéologie encore plus loin, contre Notre Seigneur Jésus-Christ.

Posté par ISENGAR

Nous arrêterons donc ici les pertes de temps des uns et des autres.

Si vous voulez honnêtement arrêter de vous mêler avec mauvaise humeur en chaque discussion où je suis, je serai heureux. Est-ce vrai?

Posté par ISENGAR

J'invite l'ensemble de mes camarades de Tolkienfrance à ne plus répondre à vos messages.

J'espère que Tolkienfrance a d'autres membres que vos camérades. Moins idéologiques que vous.

Je tiens tout de même à faire remarquer cette belle retournée de sieur hansgeorg, qui arrive à dire tout et son contraire dans le même message.

Tout d'abord en insinuant qu'un "vous" serait contre une certaine historicité de figures légendaires :

Posté par hansgeorg

Les idéologues, ce sont vous qui êtes contre l'historicité d'Odin, de Hercule, d'Arthur, de Beowulf, de Romulus.

Tous ces gens sont attestés en tant qu'ayant vécu comme hommes.

Soyons clair, l'historicité de figures légendaires ayant vécu en tant hommes puis divinisés se nomme, en français, l'évhémérisme: doctrine du philosophe Évhémère et de ses disciples sur l'origine des religions, suivant laquelle les dieux de la mythologie étaient des hommes divinisés après leur mort par les peuples se considérant comme leurs descendants. (définition du CNRTL)

Ce "vous", incluant Isengar et d'autres, serait donc contre l'évhémérisme. Sans que je comprenne bien comment une telle affirmation a pu apparaître puisqu'il n'a rien été dit de tel, il faut quand même pointer du doigt qu'hansgeorg accuse donc ce "vous" d'être contre l'évhémérisme.

Ça serait une accusation puérile a laquelle on ne donnerait pas suite, si ce n'était qu'hansgeorg arrive ensuite à accuser ce même "vous" de l'extrême contraire :

Les révisionnistes sont plutôt vous qui prétendez que évhémérisme idéologique ait produit chaque allégation d'un dieu - donc d'un faux dieu - ayant vécu sur terre. Certains poussent cette idéologie encore plus loin, contre Notre Seigneur Jésus-Christ.

Comprendre que ce "vous" serait donc partisan de ce fameux évhémérisme dont, plus haut, il affirme que le "vous" en question serait contre.

Allez hansgeorg, je vous laisse le bénéfice du doute. Vous pouvez, si vous le souhaitez, invoquer votre mauvaise maîtrise de la langue française à l'écrit pour tenter de vous justifier, mais je ne garantie pas que les gens vous croiront.